As I keep working on the UI (which is being somewhat restructured for best functionality), I'm sharing a screenie that shows some changes in the character generation menu. Following some feedback, I've changed the main attribute color codes to a less vivid tone to better fit the atmosphere the game presents.
The most prominent change concerns the main attribute controls that have been converted to arrows and placed close to the attribute score itself, instead of laying on their own panel with the '-' and '+' symbols positions inverted.
Those guys at the Codex sure got your ear, haven't they? ;) Props to see how you actually take that community feedback seriously. Just you keep taking all that with a grain of salt and never let yourself be pulled down - Codexers have been known to be more than a bit negative at times!
ReplyDeleteI've stalked the forum for a while before I posted there. So, I knew how it would turn out. And yeah, the toxicity there is nearly at Chernobyl levels. Regardless, I just squeeze out all the bad bones attitude while saving the juice that is actually useful - there are some good folks there, nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be doing very well, then! ;)
ReplyDeleteI might recommend visiting RPGWatch as a less poisonous alternative... you'll get less feedback in total but a much higher percentage of the constructive sort.
Yeah, I've seen that one also. I haven't stepped in as I alrady have too much going on. But thanks for mentioning it.
DeleteHello! really liking how the game is coming along - as well as how you're presenting it. If I may comment about the design of this screen in particular - I wonder if it would be clearer if the vertical grid of the stats-panels would not align with portraits. On the other hand, the alignment is aesthetic, and I believe users will not confuse the vertical panels the respective portrait above once they see the whole stats panel change after switching between the characters. Just sharing some thoughts :)
ReplyDeleteHello. Thanks for your feedback. Yes, the alignment is purely aesthetic so that everything feels aligned and in place. However, considering the people that tried the character editor (family members), none had difficulty understanding the UI. The minute you select another character, you will see everything change making you aware of how it works.
DeleteI'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, but so far, the way it is, hasn't been an obstacle for operating the UI, at least for those who have tried it.
Good thoughts. Interesting that, here and elsewhere, it's the UI that generates most feedback.
ReplyDeleteAs to your suggestion, I wonder if the active character's portrait could instead visibly "connect" to the stats area below much like a tab, while other portraits might be faded out? That way, the alignment would be protected while lessening the aspect that might confuse players?
I think UI might generate the most feedback since it's easy for people to say if it's clear or not, while things like art and gameplay are more complex to analyze.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the tab idea. I tried it Photoshop and it seemed to work. I framed the selected portrait panel with the dark stone from the stats-panel, placing the name and class-icon on top so the top edge of the frame was thicker (also changed the name color to be lighter for readability).
I would like to see that image. :)
Delete:)
DeleteIt's a bit of rough around the edges, mind you: https://cutt.ly/0v7hs4r
Thanks. Looking good! Might work even better if there was a common UI frame of sorts that surrounds both tab and main information window. Also, the inactive parts using lighter, more saturated colours feels odd to my eyes.
Delete'inactive parts' - you mean the unselected portraits?
DeleteIn hindsight, I thought about re-adding the yellow selection 'crosshair' around the selected portrait, although it might be better to move it down to the stats-panel to select the ones you want to change. Moving the yellow crosshair after selecting a character to the stats-panel below would visually link any portrait to its stats, starting on the top-left.
Yeah, that's what I meant - forgive my clumsy words. I didn't like the crosshair so much - they felt a bit out of place. I believe people associate brighter or more saturated colours with selections in menus, though.
DeleteO! That's one hands-on approach, I'll say! Care to share that image?
ReplyDeleteTo further extend on the UI discussion, when the character generation starts, there are no character avatars visible and after you add one, you will have the UI looking like this:
ReplyDeletehttps://i.imgur.com/PpgXmL3.png
At this point, you already know that, all information visible is related to the selected character.
But I'd guess the character information screen visible in the game will share this very layout? If so, shotgun's feedback would still be valid there where you would switch from character to character.
DeleteI have some questions and feedback on what else can be gleaned from that screen.
- you seem to be going for a maybe Fallout style 1d8 or 1d10 for attribute values - what makes that preferrable to a more common 3d6 or 1d20 in your eyes?
- your verbalization for each attribute value is very prominent. Maybe use some of that real estate to show some of the effects this value has on the character? Also, all values from 2 to 5 are adjectives, but 1 is a noun ("weakness"). Maybe "weak" would be a better fit?
- while it is not entirely obvious how "fate" might work, physical attributes seem to only account for 3 of 8 slots. Even though classes are not yet implemented, it seems to limit attributes rogues and fighters would focus on while requiring e.g. cleric style characters to spread their points rather thin.
- some skills seem to be absent while others seem very broad or unnecessarily narrow: no stealth, hunting/tracking, speaking, trading/barter, unarmed and others while maces and axes are jumbled together. "Armourer" might be generalised to "craft" to encompass weapon and arrow crafting as well. More generally, your list seems to follow the form of your UI - I don't think that should be the limiting factor.
- your mockup of the character tab with the dice suggests that attributes are rolled. But I think in a video there was a points pool. What is it going to be. (disclaimer: I love attribute rolling!)
- the bottom appears to show derived stats in realtime, showing consequences of changing individual attribut values. Loads more questions about those! Maybe do an update on your RPG system sometime?
#01 - Underlair uses a D8 system for the main attributes for the following reasons:
Delete- The first one is that you don’t modify those attributes that much throughout the game. So, you do not need a high step count to consider smaller attribute increments.
- A D8 keeps everything simpler and easier for player to get familiar with their corresponding modifiers.
- A D20 would make the text qualifiers basically impossible to distinguish (Weakness, limited, average etc…). I want text qualifiers present as words have a stronger psychological impact. Naturally, they do not replace numbers but they do help you understand their meaning. If I say “4”, it could be, bad, medium, good or something in between. But if I say “4 – Average” you get the picture immediately.
- The most important reason is that there is a dice table that translate directly from the attributes score. For example, a Strength value of 1 uses a 1d4-2; a value of 2 uses 1d4-1; a value of 3 uses 1d4; a value of 4 uses 1d4+1, (…) a value of 6 uses 1d6. The table itself accounts for 20 levels, which will be able to qualify the scores for every creature in the game. Having a 1d20 attribute score would force me to further extend this dice list to at least 30-40 levels, which would strongly impact on the score curve output without any real benefit.
#02 – The attribute verbalization.
The reason I didn’t use “Weak”, it’s because it feels ambiguous when compared with “Mediocre” or even the “Limited” designation. But it has been bugging me for a while as I’m still not 100% with it. Regardless, “weakness” tells you that it is your vulnerability – your lowest trait. Perhaps I could use another word, like “Feeble”. I’m still not sure.
#03 – Physical attribute count.
DeleteYeah, that is the traditional approach for RPG mechanics and forget that here. In Underlair, all attributes are important to every type of class. Naturally, some attributes will be more important than others, depending on several factors, but every attribute has its place in every class. Consider that there is no item restriction, and every character can use any type of item or armor and cast spells. Upgraded classes will expand the skills characters can train, therefore making use of attributes that previously may not have been seen as important.
#04 – Skills
- “Stealth” – I considered Stealth mechanics initially, but I’ve come to realize it doesn’t work well in a blobber. It wouldn’t make any difference having that one character that is impressively stealthy moving along with allies that are noisy.
- “Hunting and tracking” are not a important feature of Underlair’s mechanics as they are mitigated with how the player itself plays the game. This means that, the player, is the one that will spot animals and engaging them in combat. If he wants to be good in hunting game, he should probably train ranged combat.
- “speaking, trading and barter” are not a relevant to the mechanics of Underlair. What will impact on NPC’s behavior are your actions (renown) and dialog options. Also, as there are 6 characters, you would need to constantly exchange selection between the best character to speak, barter or trade when dealing with NPCs. This could be done automatically, but it would then bring other problems.
- “Axes & Maces”. I’m keeping the skill count at bay for simplicity – Underlair’s premise is already too complex. These 2 types of weapons function similarly. While still being different, their premise revolves about swinging them with force, hence being merged. If there is a merged skill that is really questionable, is the “Throwing” skill which encapsulates the Throwing Knives, Throwing Axes and Throwing Stones skills. These 3 types of weapons operate very differently. Anyone can throw stones but try to throw a knife effectively.
- Unarmed combat isn’t there as I don’t think anyone wants to fight monsters unarmed. This is a skill I often see in games that players really don’t care enough about it (I know I never did). Without weapons, you will probably rely on spells instead anyways. Unarmed combat would be only useful when you lose your weapon, but you will probably have a backup weapon, regardless. You can still fight unarmed. You just remove the weapons benefits from the attack roll. Nonetheless, the premise is that, you are always deadlier when you have a weapon in hand.
- The very definition of “armorer” is someone that handles the crafting and repairing of weapons and armor. Unfortunately, games have been twisting its meaning and function.
#05 – Dice roll for attributes.
Yeah! You can reroll and should reroll. I just missed doing that on the video!
#06 – Derived stats.
Absolutely! It is impossible to grasp the whole thing by just looking at the video.
Oops - 2 pages! I didn't intend to cause you extra work to defend every design decision. Sorry for the trouble - I'm sure you've given things thought enough, just take our ideas for what they are, speculative feedback.
DeleteStill, from what I remember LARPing and stuff, throwing a knife or an axe would be similar enough. However, I'd handle an ax very differently than a bludgeon, the former likely making shields popular while the latter an actual answer to shields on the battlefield. With an ax, I can hit over a shield's rim, even rip it away on the backhand, but I'm restricted to wide movements to stay effective. It could actually make sense to fight with two axes, but unlikely with two clubs. If you would indeed want to remove one current weapon skill, might I suggest combining swords and daggers into blades?
Hey no problem! Those were nice points indeed, which I gladly enjoyed sharing my feedback on. It may also help answer someone else having similar thoughts / doubts.
DeleteConcerning the throwing axes and knives, there are different types of throwing knives, those made for throwing with a spin and those made to travel in straight line, which require a different aproach for handling. The throwing axe is way heavier than a throwing knife and from what I gathered, you need to train them differently. I researched these weapons before having no choice but to merge them all into the Throwing skill.
As for the axes and maces (which includes hammers), even though they all use them same skill, they are still different weapons. What I mean is, you may unlock the "Power attack" ability for these weapons but the axe will still provide better cutting and piercing damage, while the mace will provide better crushing damage. Each weapon have their damage profile which is independent from their governing skill.
Daggers & Swords were my initial setting but then, it would mean that classes that would emphasize daggers, would also become proficient with swords. Regardless, daggers amd swords perform quite differently. A dagger is a close quarters blade while the sword is used to fence the enemy at a certain distance with far greater thrusting and slashing power, especially when using a bastard or long swords. A swordsman will have a tremendous advantage over someone wielding a dagger. Historicaly speaking, if you are going with a short blade, you need to close in your opponent to grab his weapon so you can safely stab him. Easier said than done - it's a total new skill set.
Yea, the UX from first entering the screen can the lead users from portrait to the stats-panel. Still, in your example, the other portraits seem intrinsic with the stats-panel due to both using the same material (dark stone) and sharing the grid. It's a bit confusing, probably harmlessly so, but if there's one thing I know about UI/UX design is that you can never be too clear. The key lies in balancing clarity with aesthetics.
DeleteIn a reply above to the PS image I had posted, I mentioned that the yellow selection 'crosshair' could move down to the stats-panel after selecting a unit. A selection crosshair will be necessary for controller support, but I don't think it's necessary with mouse control, in case there's a different and effective indication to which character is selected (like the tab mockup, for example).
I fear you might have replied to the wrong posting... Alas, talking of UIs, blogspot is not really a good example. I regularly log out when I want to publish because the signout button is in the wrong place. And then I find my wise words gone forever. :/
Delete@shoTgun I see what you mean. However, this is a mouse&keyboard PC title. The controller support will only come to be if the game will ever be ported to consoles, and for this to happen, Underlair would need to be a successful title. Regardless, making the game's UI compatible with a controller, would require some serious thought. Either way, the game will play drastically better with keyboard and mouse.
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